The Rule of 3s and 10s: Pain Points of Scaling a Business
With Guest Trevor Mauch
Overcoming Growth Challenges at Every Stage of Your Business Journey
The How to Sell More Podcast
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January 8, 2025
In this info-packed episode of How to Sell More, host Mark Drager interviews Trevor Mauch, founder and CEO of multi-million dollar SaaS start-up Carrot.com, about how business owners can overcome “growth pain points” as they scale.
Listen in as Trevor maps out why companies stall for example at $300,000, $3 million, and $30 million in revenue. He outlines the specific changes leaders must make at each stage and introduces a fresh approach to breaking past these predictable barriers.
Trevor will teach you how to embrace the right “leadership identity” at each growth stage. For example, at $300,000, founders must master delegation. The $1 million mark requires delegating projects and hiring managers, $3 million demands building scalable systems and delegating results, and hitting $10 million requires transforming into a strategic CEO who delegates strategy to key executives.
Each growth stage forces entrepreneurs to evolve or plateau. Trevor emphasizes how you can realign your values with your success and maintain conviction in your product as you navigate these growth pain points.
After working with thousands of entrepreneurs through Carrot.com and as a scaling advisor, Trevor developed the Entrepreneur Freedom Formula. His formula outlines how business owners can align purpose, consistent profits, and energy to create sustainable growth.
Trevor challenges traditional growth advice that encourages longer hours and more complex systems. Instead, he recommends a different path—one focused on optimizing personal energy to avoid burnout and build a business that supports your life, not the other way around.
If your business has plateaued and you aren’t sure what changes you need to make to clear the next revenue milestone, this episode is for you. Trevor's practical experience and proven strategies show how to identify your next growth barrier and build the skills to move past it.
Your business will never outgrow your identity. I’ve got a buddy who’s a nine-figure CEO. He could step into my business tomorrow, and I guarantee the business would have no choice but to grow because he knows he is the identity of a nine-figure CEO. -- Trevor Mauch
Top 3 Reasons to Listen
Learn What Breaks at Each Revenue Stage - Understand the common challenges that arise as your business grows through revenue milestones like $300K, $1M, and $3M. Trevor Mauch explains what needs to change in your systems, processes, and leadership to prevent your company from stalling and slipping backward.
Get Practical Strategies for Delegation and Growth - Hear how to transition from handling everything yourself to effectively building and leading a team. Trevor shares actionable advice for delegating tasks, results, and even strategy at different business stages, helping you scale without overburdening yourself.
Build a Business That Aligns with Your Goals - Gain insights into how to align your business with your personal vision and avoid feeling trapped by its demands. Trevor’s frameworks, like the Energy Audit, offer a clear path to reclaim your time and energy while ensuring your business works for you—not the other way around.
Follow Trevor Mauch on Social
More About Today's Guest, Trevor Mauch
5x Inc 5000 CEO / 40 Under 40 / Founder Carrot.com
Trevor Mauch is the founder and CEO of Carrot, a leading software company specializing in website and lead generation solutions for real estate professionals. Since starting Carrot in 2014, Trevor has grown the company into a trusted platform for thousands of real estate investors and agents, earning recognition as a five-time Inc. 5000 honoree.
Trevor’s expertise lies in scaling businesses through innovative marketing strategies, customer-focused product development, and fostering strong, mission-driven teams. He is a sought-after thought leader in the B2B space, known for his ability to uncover hidden opportunities in businesses and turn them into measurable results.
With a background in entrepreneurship and digital marketing, Trevor has honed his skills in helping companies amplify their reach while maintaining a strong focus on customer success. He believes in aligning business goals with a larger purpose, creating a ripple effect of value for clients and stakeholders alike.
Based in Roseburg, Oregon, Trevor is passionate about promoting entrepreneurship in underserved markets, particularly rural areas. His leadership at Carrot continues to inspire other B2B leaders to integrate mission-driven strategies into their businesses for sustained growth and impact.
Key Takeaways
- Evolving Leadership as Business Grows - As revenue increases, the owner must transition from executing tasks to guiding the team and setting the company’s direction. Effectively delegating responsibilities at key revenue milestones ensures sustainable growth, prevents setbacks, and avoids burnout by adapting the founder's mindset to the business's current stage.
- Aligning Growth with Purpose: Maintaining energy and enthusiasm comes from regularly reevaluating what you want your business to achieve—whether it’s freedom, impact, or both—and ensuring your daily activities align with your ideal life. Adjusting your growth strategy, including scaling back when necessary, safeguards against feeling trapped or losing sight of your purpose.
- Selling with Genuine Conviction: Confidence in your product’s value allows leaders to stand firmly behind every offer, even under pressure. Prioritizing the resolution of customer challenges and addressing product gaps before scaling sales builds trust, credibility, and authentic customer relationships.
A Transcription of The Talk
Trevor Mauch: Things break at threes and tens in revenue. Things break at a hundred thousand, three hundred thousand, a million, three million, 10 million, 30 million. They break. And the thing is, Mark, a different thing breaks every time you can't scale over and stay over 300,000 a year in revenue. If you can't delegate well, if you can't work through other people, a million dollars is where you've got to really learn how to delegate projects well and probably hire your first real manager and start to delegate the day-to-day delivery of certain things. Three to ten million, you're delegating results. At this point, there's a plan, and we have goals, and we know where we're going, but man, I need to hire someone to deliver on those results. Now I'm at 10 million plus, you're delegating strategy. You're bringing in your right executives who can truly bring in strategy to drive the business forward.
Mark Drager: From Sales Loop: This is how to sell more. We're B2B business leaders. Get fresh sales and marketing ideas and proven strategies from industry experts and seasoned entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Mark Drager, and on today's episode, we're exploring how to break through the painful barriers that every business faces as it grows and scales.
Specifically, what happens to your systems and your processes, your focus, your vision. What happens when you hit the threes and the tens? That is, the revenue milestones of 100k, 300k, a million, 3 million, 10 million, 30 million, and beyond. Now, if you're a business owner who's listening to this and you feel trapped by your own success, you want to reclaim your time, you want to reclaim your energy, or maybe you're hitting a ceiling in your own growth and you need to understand what's really holding you and your culture and your team and your company back.
Or perhaps you're ready to move from being a performer to being a true business builder who can scale beyond your own personal capacity, beyond your own personal skill sets. Regardless, this episode is for you. Now, helping us explore this topic today is Trevor Mauch. He is the founder and CEO of Carrot, a SaaS company.
That's not only grown through and past these exact revenue milestones we're going to cover today, but he's helped thousands of other businesses do the same through his lead generation platform. Now, a few quick highlights about Trevor before we get into the conversation. As I mentioned, he has navigated these growth barriers, these pain points, these pain lines we're going to talk about today by bootstrapping Carrot from startup to an eight-figure company that's made it on the Inc. 5000 list multiple years running.
Now, before Carrot, he co-founded other successful and, maybe interestingly enough, other unsuccessful ventures, which has really given him a unique perspective on what breaks and when it breaks as companies scale. Now, today he leads a team of over 50 employees, proving that he has mastered this transition from performer to builder, but more importantly, he's dedicated to helping other entrepreneurs like you, like me.
Avoid the costly mistakes he's had to work through himself by creating frameworks and systems to help owners break through these revenue ceilings. So with that, I'm excited to share the conversation that I had with Trevor Mauch. So, at an event last year, Trevor, you gave a presentation that really stuck with me about how as entrepreneurs, as business leaders, we tend to get comfortable at each stage of the business's growth until it ends up feeling almost as if we're a bit trapped. Can you share what you've discovered about these different growth barriers, these different stages that keep holding us back and, more importantly, what can we do about it?
Trevor Mauch: Mark, I'm pumped to come on here, man. And I know right before we hit record on this, we're kind of riffing back and forth on some of the lessons and the challenges as entrepreneurs, or even not even some entrepreneurs, just leaders, people who want to grow and do this.
One of my greatest passions is to talk about this stuff, right? My business does something else. We don't sell coaching on this. We don't do this stuff, but this is a passion of mine because I see so many of us entrepreneurs building businesses that trap us. And we can talk in this episode on how to make sure that doesn't happen.
Mark Drager: Well, I had this moment maybe back in 2013 or '14, this moment of realization. I started my agency in 2006, but this moment of realization that for each one of my staff members, their work, their time, their experience, the time that they're going to spend in my firm is a stepping stone on the path of their career.And for me as the business owner, this was a shackle I could never get free from.
Trevor Mauch: Yeah. Yep. Exactly. And dude, that's the thing, right? When we start as entrepreneurs, we usually have some sort of a dream, right? We have a dream that we're stepping into, and what I've found, Mark, over the years—at least for me, and I think it's pretty true across a lot of others—is that when we start something, we're usually moving away from something. It's like there's something I don't like about my current state. I don't like the job I've got, or I don't like my current business, or I don't like that there's an income ceiling, or I'm going to prove these people wrong in my life.
Usually, we're propelled forward by something behind us, something that's pushing us—a pain, right? That we're trying to get away from. And the challenge that happens is we get excited about that. But as soon as we're away from that pain, as soon as we're away from the business that we don't like—which I can tell a story about how I ran away from a business I didn't like into a new one—or you're away from that job, we forget to move forward and move towards something. We forget to have a vision that we're excited about moving towards. And then we get stuck in maintenance mode. We get stuck in what I call the three-year turn and burn cycle of our businesses. And that's where it gets energy-draining, man. That's where it gets bad.
Mark Drager: So back in 2012, you walked away from a business partnership. Tell me about that.
Trevor Mauch: Yeah. So in 2012, and kind of bringing people up to speed now, I've got a company called Carrot, and we're 50-plus employees, an eight-figure-a-year business. Uh, but at that time, 2012, I was on the tail end of a business with my business partner, loving the death dude.
We're still great friends. Patrick Riddle. He goes and speaks at the family events that we met at. And it's amazing to run a multiple eight-figure business today. That was the business we started. But dude, I had grown tired of my role in that business. I had grown to resent even waking up to do work in that business that I had created with Patrick.
I had been doing all these things in that job that I was getting paid well for. The people told me, "You're really good at, right, man? Trevor, you're really good at writing copy or video sales letters." We were the first ones to bring a VSL into the real estate investing space, and it blew up. I wrote the VSL.
I recorded it. I did all that stuff, and I got paid well for it. And what starts to happen when you start getting money sent your way and people give you accolades saying you're good at the thing, you go, "Oh, maybe that's what I should be doing more of." What I didn't discover, though, Mark, is I would draw a line down the middle of a paper, and people would tell me, "Hey, on one side of the paper, put things that make me money."
"And on the other side, put things that don't," and you got your list. "Do everything you can to get rid of everything on the left side of the things you're doing that don't make you money, and put all your time in things that make you money." And I did that. And I became miserable.
We had our first child in 2010, and I remember vividly, you know, during that first year, my wife was going to work and took our daughter to daycare. And I remember vividly multiple days lying there at 10 a.m. when I should have been working. My wife was working. My daughter was at daycare. I should have been working.
I'm looking at the ceiling like, "I don't want to do the work today. I don't want to do it." And so this was an online publishing company, and it did well, right? We weren't making millions per year, but it did well. And what I discovered, now in full hindsight, Mark, right today, you know, as of the time we're recording this, Patrick took that business and repositioned it after a few pivots where it didn't work, then it blew up, and he's going to do 30 million plus.
Right. I took my energy into a new business that grew into eight figures. We're both now in our genius zones—we flip-flopped. We're doing the opposite today of what our roles were at that time. And my big realization was I had to have a buddy named Greg, and I joined my first ever mastermind in 2012, because I'm like, "I need to find myself, man."
I need to figure out how to grow past this, because I see that guy Greg seems like he's got the life that I kind of want—the life he's got. I just wasn't grateful for the life that I had looking back, but he had a team, and at that time he had 20 employees, which might as well have been a million employees to me.
I didn't know how to lead people. Well, he had multiple businesses, and it seemed like he could go into that business and do the things he was good at. And he went to the other business, did things he was good at, and other people did the other work. I have no clue how to bridge from where I am to where you are.
The one piece of advice, and I'll toss it back to you, that changed everything for me: He goes, "Trevor, do you know what gives you energy?" And I really hadn't sat down to think about it. And he said he learned from Dan Sullivan, a strategic coach, and I joined Dan Sullivan's coaching program the next year for one year.
He's like, "Dude, once you find your unique ability, and it's the stuff that gives you energy, you have more energy when you're done doing the thing than when you started." And ideally, it can also drive value into the world. He's like, "Once you find that, dude, you just focus all into that, forget everything else."
And I ended up working hard. It took me about a year and a half to really nail it, to deprogram how I was thinking. And I changed the exercise—lying down the middle of the paper. Everything that gives me energy on one side, everything that drains my energy on the other side. And this is what changed my life at the end of 2012, Mark.
I created what I call my energy audit. And I can give people a free link to, or just my worksheet if they wanted it, but I'm like, "What if I just flip the script, rather than optimizing for money or productivity and time, what if I optimize for energy?" Because even if I wasn't making money and I had higher energy and I was enjoying things, I'd much rather have that than making a lot of money and hating it.
And so I did. Starting there, I circled the two or three things that were draining my energy the most each week. I put down how many hours per week I was spending on it, even if they made me a lot of money. And I said, "That's my number one priority this quarter. So get rid of those on my schedule and have someone else do those."
And then I go to the energy-giving side of things. I'd be like, "Man, these things give me energy, but I'm not doing them. I don't have time to work out. I don't have time to do this." And I'd circle that—those 10 hours I'm getting back by replacing myself and the energy-draining revenue drivers. I'm like, "I don't care if this makes me money. It gives me energy. I'm going to do it." That changed the game for me completely moving forward.
Mark Drager: So at any point when you were doing this energy audit work to reclaim your time, did you worry about whether you could actually afford to make these changes? Because I'm thinking, like many business owners, many leaders, uh, often feel the weight of responsibility of payroll, of overhead, of obligations. Even when we know we might be going a little too hard, we might be burning ourselves out.
Trevor Mauch: Yeah. So in that business with Patrick, we didn't cause it always ran really lean. And I would say that he and I over-indexed and probably did a lot more work than we maybe could have or should have, right? We were young, didn't have a lot of obligations, we were just working a lot of hours, and in the early days, it was fun, right?
In the early days, you get energy from it. But then once you start to be in maintenance mode of the business, you're not creating new things, and you're like trying to just run the machine you created. That's where we start to get trapped as a business owner. So, not in that business, but in Carrot, around 2014, about two to three years into that business, that happened.
And so Carrot's payroll is big, like yours. Well, in the seven figures per year, and I remember around the tail end of 2016 going into 2017, this happened. I would stay up late, probably three to four nights a week. I put the kids to bed, and my wife and I would have some time together, maybe an hour or so, and not looking back.
It wasn't insanely quality time, oftentimes watching some TV and just kind of winding down. Then she would go to bed around 11, and three to four nights a week, I would stay up and get work done—work that I couldn't get done during the day or my brain was just ready for it now. I would stay up until 2:34 in the morning, sometimes getting that article written or making the thing that I needed to make.
There was one day we were going to Klamath Falls, Oregon. I live in a small town in Oregon, and Klamath Falls is about three hours over the mountain. That's where I grew up—a road I've driven a million times. It was the middle of the day, and one second I was awake with my wife and kid in the car, and the next second I wasn't. I fell asleep going 60 miles an hour on the highway and a mountain road.
I remember waking up, dude, just like it's in the movies, right? You wake up, you go, there's no way the guy woke up just in time to barely scrape the guardrail and then stop. That's what happened. I woke up—my wife is reading, so she didn't see me veer off on a mountain road, curbside everywhere, hit the guardrail, scraped, stopped dead in the middle of the road, and I just couldn't speak.
My wife was like, "What happened?" And I said, "I fell asleep." So we swapped, and I didn't drive for a family trip for six months after that.
Now here's where I'm going with this. Mark, at that time, I had a mindset of, "I will build this business off my shoulders." Okay, I will build this business on my shoulders. I was afraid of hiring a team and doing it the right way that day. I just went cold turkey. I said, "It's not worth my health and my family's health for this business. The only way I'm going to build this business is if it's with the team. Now I've got to learn how to do it with the team."
So that's when I had to make that shift to say, "Hey, I have to do this with other people." And I think we had four or five, maybe six or seven employees at that time. The next two years, we went up to about 25, and then we hit the next challenge.
We hit the next spot, and one thing I talked about in that presentation: things break at threes and tens in revenue, right? Things break at 100,000; 300,000; a million; three million—they break.
And the thing is, Mark, a different thing breaks every time, but it's usually a leadership thing that you have to step into. You can't scale over and stay over 300,000 dollars a year in revenue. If you can't delegate well, if you can't work through other people, you just cannot stay there. You might get up to 500,000. That's what happened in the previous business. We got to five, six, seven, then went back down because we didn't delegate well, especially me.
So a million dollars is where you've got to really learn how to delegate projects well and probably hire your first real manager and start to delegate the day-to-day delivery of certain things. From three to ten million, you've got to start to really delegate different things, right? You're delegating results at this point. Now I've got to learn how to delegate results. There's a plan, and we have goals, and we know where we're going, but man, I need to hire someone to deliver on those results now and make sure that I'm coaching them well and holding them accountable.
At ten million plus, you're delegating strategy. You're bringing in your right executives who can truly bring in strategy to drive the business forward.
Each one of those, Mark, I got stuck. Each one of those. I had the feeling that you did where it's like, "Oh man, I don't like the business again." Every single one of them. And you start to go, "Shoot, why am I doing this? Because I have enough money now. Why should I go to the next level? Am I doing this just to pay the payroll, or is there a greater reason?"
And what I had to do with each time, Mark, every time I hit one of those pain lines—which you will hit those pain lines. Sometimes people fly through the pain lines. I flew through the 300,000; the million; and the three million in Carrot because I had been stuck at those pain lines in a previous business. And I got a coach this time in 2016 who helped me make it through it. The ten million pain line, dude, that hit hard. And we can talk about that one if you want, but at each one of those, we hit the pain line, we have to ask a couple of questions.
Number one is, "Who do I need to become in order to grow through this next pain line? What does a 30 million CEO look like versus where I am now? Or if I'm doing a million dollars a year and I'm stuck and I'm hating my business, are there any examples of someone doing five million a year that enjoys their business?"
"Okay, well, let me follow them. Let me figure out what their traits are. How are they showing up? What are they doing differently? How are they leading differently? What's their mindset? Because I just need to do an identity upgrade and step into a new identity. Right? Your business will never outgrow your identity."
"Your business will never outgrow your identity. Okay, I've got a buddy who's a nine-figure CEO. He could step into my business tomorrow, and I guarantee the business would have no choice but to grow because he knows he is the identity of a nine-figure CEO. I would step into his business within a period of time. The business would have no choice but to shrink because I'm not the identity of a nine-figure CEO right now."
Mark Drager: This is interesting though because it works the opposite way as well. You know, I'm very—I wouldn't say comfortable, but I'm comfortable operating a two-million-dollar company, you know, a service-based business, not even based on annual or monthly recurring revenue. That was like for year after year, I knew we had to find, replace, deliver two million in project work from scratch every single year.
And I've seen this with CEOs who step out of maybe a medium-sized organization and come to a smaller one, or I've seen this with people who are in corporate or CEOs who step into startup entrepreneurship, where maybe, in fact, they'd be better acquiring an existing company and scaling and running teams.
And so this whole idea of identity mismatch, I think it's not that it's overlooked. I just don't think it's respected as much as it should be because it really can throttle or impact the growth, as well as the confidence and the ability of a company or a team.
Trevor Mauch: Oh, big time, dude. I'm pulling up. If you're cool with it, I'm going to share something on my screen.
Mark Drager: Hey guys, it's Mark from the future. We're in the process of actually editing this episode, and I wanted to just quickly jump in here to help set up the visual chart Trevor's about to walk us through. So for those of you who are listening, Trevor is opening up his screen, and he's actually going to walk through this really powerful visual that he's created that talks about the different barriers, the different growth barriers at each stage of business.
So if you picture a chart, picture a table, and the chart shows different revenue milestones. The first column is 100,000 to 300,000. The second column is 300,000 to a million. The next column is a million to 3 million, and then 3 million to 10 million, and then 10 million to 30 million. Now, at each of these levels, in each of these columns, there's a specific challenge or a specific pain line that business owners and leaders have to break through.
The most fascinating part about how our role as leaders needs to change at each of these stages is the fact that at 300,000 to a million, it's a very different leader than at a million to three million or 10 million to 30 million. And Trevor's about to walk us through that. So I just want you to think about a very simple chart with these columns, with the different pain lines.
If you would like to actually access this, if you'd like to download this, you can head over to trevormock.com/freedom. The chart is there. You can go ahead, and you don't have to enter your email. It's totally free. It's right there on the page. And then if you have the chart, you can kind of play along from home as we go through this. So let's get back into the conversation.
Trevor Mauch: It's a chart, and I'll do my best, Mark, to kind of, um, help people visualize it who are just hearing the audio part. But the reason I think this is important is because as we talk about growing the business and when you hit those pain lines at threes and tens, and then as you talk about, man, getting into those spaces of the business where we're just waking up.
And it feels like the business is running us versus us running the business, right? We're just clocking in to make payroll to keep the thing alive versus moving towards a vision. That's normal. Like, that's the thing I want people to recognize. Number one, number one is normal. Okay. If you're not experiencing that at these pain lines, amazing.
You're the exception, not the rule, but you will eventually hit a pain line where that happens. And then we hit the spot where it starts to get hard. We then distract ourselves with the things that give us energy. And for going into the eight figures, what happens with the CEO, oftentimes we go look for new projects, right?
We're like, "Hey, I'm going to go build a new product." And we almost take it as our pet project over here because we're not ready to deal with the rest of the issues and the whole rest of the business, because it takes big decisions and oftentimes replacing people that we love. So we go distract ourselves with a new project or new business. But at the levels, essentially, we first recognize, like, what are the pain lines?
And what do those pain lines look like at each level—300K to a million—the pain line is delegation. You cannot stay over 300K and get over a million unless you learn how to work through other people effectively. We've got to be able to help work through other people to accomplish tasks through others and to get to the million mark, which is what you’re amazing at.
You mentioned, "Man, I can like clockwork nail 2 million a year, but one of the reasons it might've been harder for you to get higher is, dude, you are a performer, man."
Mark Drager: Well, let me tell you, I don't think I've said this out loud on this podcast, but there were four years in a row where we did a million dollars in revenue, plus or minus twenty thousand dollars. And I could not—I just couldn't figure it out. I was like, at a certain point, you're like, "Oh, look, we did like 980K, then we did a million, then we did a million twenty, then we did a million again." It's like a year after year, something is going on here where four years in a row you do the exact same revenue. Like, what's happening there?
Trevor Mauch: Dude, and once again, number one, congratulations, because the percentage of people who build a million-dollar business is insanely low, right? So that's the first thing. Let's pull back and appreciate that, dude, that you worked magic, right? You literally spun magic and were able to create a million-dollar business, which is the majority of people's dream.
It only took seven years, man. You did it though. And so what happened there? And I've been stuck there before as well. What happened there is we're performers. We got to that level because we can perform. We got really good at something. You got really good at doing the craft of the agency. I could do the SEO stuff, the marketing stuff, the sales stuff.
You got really good at selling your product. You got really good at marketing, and then you delegated things. That's how you stayed over 300,000 or right there around a million because you could delegate the tasks well, and you were amazing. If you took yourself out of the business, it probably wouldn't have got to a million.
Right? But to get over a million then and stay over a million—let's say, let's get over the 3 million mark—we need to shift the identity into a builder. No longer can the business be fully focused on me as the performer that's driving this revenue. I need to build. What do I build? I build people. Cool. I build processes.
I build structure in the business so others can help build the business too. I'm going to build the people. The people are going to build the business. Okay, the pain line there then is scaling process. It's like, in order to get over three and stay over three, we have to have process and we have to have people.
We have to be able to have some sort of cadence that manages that well, right? And that's hard. That's a really, really hard leap and why a lot of people get stuck at a million—they'll get stuck at 900,000 or 1.1 or 1.2 or 2 million. Then they'll shrink back down because they haven't learned to go, "Hey, this business can't be built fully around me to make it successful."
And here's what happens. Our purpose needs to start to shift as well. We've got to really pull back and create a new skill. I've got to shift into an identity of a builder, and then I'll move up to the next one and stop there—three to 10 million. The pain line that we hit is leadership, right? It's leadership.
It's like, "Oh man, now, not only if I try to build this business strictly off of my sheer will and performance in one or two things amazingly well, the wheels are going to fall off because I can't commit to being everywhere at once. We're going to start to let customers down. And there's just a bunch of things that are going to happen."
Okay. So I need to be a good leader because now, yeah, I've built process is good. I can build a hiring process, and I hired some people, but now I need my people to build the business. I've got to be a leader. What does the leader look like? What traits does a leader have? How does the leader show up differently and do that?
And then our purpose—at least mine, and I've seen this a lot with others. Now we're making enough money in the three to 10 million market. If it's a business that is relatively well-run, right, we're making enough money to where it's like, "Okay, I mean, I hit probably a lot of my income goals at this point."
And we start to look at purpose and we say, "What is my purpose and vision now?" Well, that's where we once can—we need to shift our purpose up. We need to elevate it up into—usually it's impact. "Why should I grow this business? If it's just for my own significance, if it's just from my own bank account, we're probably out a number that we can already buy most of what we want to buy."
Right. Right. And within reason, you can rent the private jet for a flight. You can rent the yacht for the week. You're not going to buy them, but man, you're making some good money. And so I'm like, "Well, why do I want to keep growing this thing? Why do I want to keep showing up to work? We've got to have something we're moving towards."
Now we've got to have something where we're going. The business now should fuel my life vision. Number one, I need to have clarity on my vision. And the business is solely as it exists. I'm hiring my—this is a phrase that came up last year, Mark. I'm like, "I hire employees and I hire consultants."
People hire you. They hire you to solve a certain problem, and what we forget with that business, like in the instance where you talked about where you're at that 2 million mark, and you just feel like you're just waking up just to make payroll, we have to pull back and say, "What did I hire my business to do for me?"
What did I hire my business to do for me? And is that business doing that for me right now? And if it's not, I need to get clear on what I'm hiring my business for, because if I'm not liking it, I'm probably not clear what I hired it for. And at that point, when I started to get stuck right around the seven to 8 million mark, and I knew the 10 million was approaching, I need to shift into a different type of leader.
I had that moment, dude, I had that moment. I'm like, "Should I sell?" Because this is getting hard. It's getting way uncomfortable. And I pull back and I go, "Well, what did I hire this business to do?" And when we hit pain lines, there are three things that happen. Number one, we think about selling. Okay. If it's a sellable business, maybe I can get rid of this pain by just selling my way out of it.
Number two, we sabotage. We inadvertently stop doing the things that we know we need to do because we know that if we take that email or we take that phone call, or we onboard that client, it's going to make things harder because we didn't fix the root issue of the process, the people, or the system. We self-sabotage and avoid the things that are going to grow the business because it's going to create more pain.
The third one is we settle. We look back a level or two to what was comfortable. When we hit those spots, we have to make the decision: What are we going to do? We can grow through the pain, which requires an identity upgrade. Okay. Or we can step into and embrace the pain and move into one of those three things, potentially.
Mark Drager: Is this something you found or is this something that you developed over time?
Trevor Mauch: No, I developed it. I've got a friend named Alex Sharfman. I met him at Russell Brunson's Mastermind years ago, in 2015. And Alex is what gave me the idea of this—putting the revenue levels. He didn't invent the 10s and 3s. Clayton Mask in Fusionsoft wrote a book, Conquering the Chaos, way back when, I think in 2009. He mentioned the 10s and 3s. I don't know who invented that, but I borrowed it because it makes a lot of sense. I've experienced that it actually happens. What I discovered, though, Mark, was that I wrote this down in 2016. I was at the coffee shop across the street. I'll visualize it for everyone listening.
I was sitting there thinking, this would have been 15 years ago. I wrote my first—I call it my first life vision story. Okay, life vision story. I remember this was in 2008. I went to my first-ever event of any kind. I won a ticket to this event. I didn't have the money to pay to go to this event. It ended up being a seven or eight-day event with a rich chef friend. It was called the New Beginnings Event. Had everybody there, dude—Jeff Walker, Frank Kern, J. Abraham. You just keep on naming everybody. Frank Kern gave a presentation that became pretty famous, and he called it something like the "Core Belief" presentation.
I was right up there in the front row during it. He walked through his whole journey and his story. He said the thing that changed his life was he sat down and thought, "What's my perfect ideal average day? What's my perfect ideal average date?" Not like blowing it out of the water.
I love Metallica, and I'm just like, "Partying with Metallica for a 24-hour day." I'm talking, if you had to wake up every day and live this day plus or minus—every day for the rest of your life—you'd be pretty happy with it. He just said, "Close your eyes." Literally, from the second you wake up to the second you go to bed, just write down everything that you see, everything you're experiencing right now, every moment you can.
I still do it today. I've got mine right over here. I wrote six pages, dude, just handwritten, of what my ideal average day was going to look like. Until I did that, I wasn't really clear on what life I wanted to build. Okay. Until I did that, I wasn't really clear on what role my business was going to have in my life. Clearly, I didn't work nine to five that day, but I did work. I wanted to work, and I only did certain activities. At that time, I didn't know about the energy audit, but in that original vision and even in mine today, the stuff that I did only gave me energy. There are people I enjoyed being around, right? So when I did that, and I was sitting across at the coffee shop in 2016, sitting down and going, okay, in my original vision, it didn't include me running a business day-to-day.
How do I now step into that? How do I step into that vision that I wrote down? I went, "Well, I've got to start to kind of document how I think about business." One of the things I'd encourage everyone to do is think, "What is the thing I'm actually trying to get out of this? What am I hiring this business to do?"
For me, what I was hiring my business to do was to give me freedom and impact. So I wrote that right in the middle of the paper. I'm like, "Freedom and impact." It wasn't to get rich. If that is a part of freedom and impact, amazing, but there's freedom and impact. If I run a business, I don't have true freedom, and I'm not making a true impact. I don't want a part of it. I don't care how much money I make.
So then I sat there and went, "Well, how do you build a business of freedom and impact?" I looked at the success we'd had up to that point with Carrot, and I borrowed from other people and worked through a bunch of variations of this, but this is the one I have today.
The first thing, man, I got a purpose. You’ve got to have a reason you're doing that excites you. The second thing was, "Well, it's hard to do it." I've done the opposite of this—it's hard to do it. If you have a business that doesn't bring in consistent profits, my previous business with Patrick Riddle made good money at the end of the year. But the problem, Mark, was this: We'd make $145,000 one month. Three months later, we'd split $6,000. And then it would just go like this. Our tax return made it look like we made a good income, but we were stressed as crap every month because we didn't know where our revenue was going to come from the next month.
So I'm like, consistent profits—that's gotta be a key part of any business I ever built. The third part was, "Well, if I believe in what I'm doing, and I have a business that builds me consistent profits, I can still get trapped in the thing. I can still get trapped because it's sucking all my time and energy." So I thought, "Man, energy and time have got to be the third part. If I build a business that has purpose and it's consistently profitable, I can predict within a 10 percent variance in six to 12 months what my income is going to be. That's freedom." And then if I'm able to get my energy and time back, dude, that's the business I want.
So that created what I call my Entrepreneur Freedom Formula, which you're seeing on the screen, but I visualize it as this Venn diagram for everyone. Within that, I'm like, "Well, dude, how do we create a business of purpose? How do we create a business of consistent profits? How do we create a business of energy and time?" And what happens when we're not—if we're in this part here, where we have a business that we feel purpose about and it's consistently profitable, but man, we have no time. We're working 60 hours a week. We're in a hustle and grind business.
"You're like, I enjoy what I'm doing. It's consistently profitable, man. I have no time." And I'm out of energy. That means we need to get more of the energy and time back. I've got a process for that—my energy audit that I just described, the right playbooks, and delegating the right things. If I'm over here, I'll describe it.
"Man, this business is purposeful. I've got all the time in the world to go do things. I enjoy it. I feel like I'm," but you're going, "Man, I'm just not really making a lot of money doing this thing. It's a struggle." That's what I would call a passion project, right? "Hey, you love it. They're not making any money. That's a passion project until you figure out how to get consistent profits. Well, you need a strategy. You need to add leverage to it. You need to do what I call adding an evergreen foundation."
The last one I'll toss it back to you. I've met many of our customers like this, man, "I'm crushing it. I'm making a lot of money, making $150,000 a month in profit or whatever the number is." And dude, you know, I had delegated. Well, I bought time back. I'm working 10 hours a week now. There's a guy, a client of ours, Keith. He came to one of my events called a Carrot Camp here. He came here in the hustle and grind mode, "I'm excited about what I'm doing. I'm making good money," but dude, "I am working 60 hours a week. I'm hating it." We got him to get a team. We got him to delegate the right things. He came back the next Carrot Camp. It's like, "Dude, I'm not working 60 hours a week, and I'm working 10." We go, "Amazing." We're celebrating with them. And he was just—it was weird because he was just dull the whole time.
And I'm like, "Dude, what's wrong with Keith? You literally did exactly what you hoped you were going to do." Because I feel empty. I just feel empty. I feel like I don't know why I'm doing what I'm doing. That's a lifestyle business. I never want a lifestyle business. Never want to let some business.
Mark Drager: The reason I brought this up is because this is what I then took. I said, "Well, I started working with a bunch of other entrepreneurs, and I found that the things they had to solve, the things they delegated, the playbooks they needed to make, the visions and the strategies they needed to have, the identity upgrades they needed to have were different at every revenue level."
So that's when I took this and said, "Well, let me plot them on revenue." I'm going to walk through it, and it took me about a year and a half of working with a lot of people myself to go, "Okay, this is about what almost everyone hits at these revenue levels with each one of those sections of the Monetary Freedom Formula at each revenue level." This is huge.
Mark Drager: And thank you for walking us through that because it's one of those things. I remember I was at a Tony Robbins event, and I think he said, "You know, this year's 10 is next year's five," kind of thing. Like, this is a constant balancing act, and that kind of bothers me. Uh, I'm a builder. I'm not—I don't—I'm trying to identify as a maintainer, but I'd much rather spend my time building something. Don't do it.
Trevor Mauch: Don't try to, if that's not what gives you energy, man. There are people that love that stuff.
Mark Drager: Oh my goodness. To me, maintenance is like such a waste of time and energy and money because you're just spending all of this effort to keep things the way they are. I'd much rather improve and optimize and build and do all of these things.
So thank you for giving me permission to do that. But you remind me, and I think it's from the book Rigging the Game by Dan Nicholson, there's this idea that you got to get comfortable building for now, not forever, right? And I think, I think again, it's from this book. And I believe he gives this illustration of—you might be looking to build a new ERP or a new CRM within your company.
And you might be thinking, "Well, gosh, we're going to spend six months, nine months, eight, 10, 12 months on this integration, or we're going to do this or whatever it is. We're going to get a SaaS, maybe like yours. We're going to bring it in, but there's a lot of effort and a lot of time to put into this." And even though we only need, you know, uh, this solution now, in three years, "Gosh, we're going to be so much bigger. We're going to be so—if we're going to invest all this time and effort, why build something that we could use right now? Let's actually build the thing we're going to need in three years." And then the trap we run into is we spend a lot of time building this thing that we will—one day, we are going to be ready for it, but we can't use it right now.
Because we're not ready for it. And we may never, by the time three years goes by, we actually can't even forecast what we might need by then.
Trevor Mauch: Yeah. And the game already changed by then. So it might not even be relevant at that point.
Mark Drager: In fact, we're left with nothing. I was reading this and I was at an event, and I was speaking to a business owner, and he was talking about this very thing.I said, "Build it for now, not forever. Give yourself permission to build something for what you need right now, knowing in 12 months, you may have to actually throw it away." And so with these milestones, these challenges, these pain points, these pain lines, these pain thresholds we need to grow by, I believe that one thing we need to get comfortable with is just knowing that whatever we build right now is not something that is either endlessly scalable or going to work in every situation. Or at every point, we have to continually be building past and through each of these growth points. Am I getting that right?
Trevor Mauch: Yeah, you definitely have to. And here's something I'll kind of put out to the group here too. And this might be in some circles controversial, potentially, but I'm a big believer, Mark, and I don't believe that everybody's company should grow.
I don't believe that every company has to grow. I believe that whatever your life vision is, as long as you feel good about it and it excites you, it gives you energy, right? It excites you like, "Yeah, that's the life I want. That's what we should build our business towards." The second is that our business is fulfilling that for us. Until we revamp and have a bigger vision that requires the business to grow, I always want to give people permission to say, "Dude, keep your business the same size," or I want to give people permission to say, "Man, your business is bigger than it needs to be to make the impact and build the life you want to build. Scale it back."
Right. And I want to make sure people recognize and realize it's not illegal to scale your business back. It's okay to scale your business back as long as you recognize that scaling the business back means you're making a core decision to build the business around you, which is okay. As long as that's what you truly want, and you're not doing it because the pain line was so hard you couldn't grow through it, right?
If your aspiration is actually that you want this bigger life and this big ramp back, but you're giving up on working through the changes you need to make through that pain line, that's not okay. Okay, that pain line is there, so you can grow. So you have that opportunity to become someone better.
But I talk with people, and they're like, "7 million this year in revenue." The first question I was asked, Mark, is like, "Why?" Okay. Awesome. That's a number that sounds amazing. "Why do you want that number?" And they're like, "Well, because we did 4 million this year and I think we can keep growing; we have this new product." I'm like, "That all sounds great. Yeah, you'll be able to hit seven. I have confidence." But like, "Why the seven? What is the seven going to help you do? What are you hiring the seven to do in your life? Other than just keep you busy, right? Are we chasing a bigger number because bigger numbers, there's always a bigger number."
And we think that bigger number equals, "I get into a bigger room and I feel better about myself," and all these things. That's a never-ending chase. There's always a bigger room. There's always a bigger number. There's always someone doing better than you are financially. So I want to play in a different game.
I want to complain a completely different ball field. I don't play that ball field. I play the ball field of, "Let me dream. Let me figure out the ideal average day that I want to live and the impact I want to make on this earth and the people I want to make it for and the things that give me energy." And I'm going to build—I hire my business to do that, to deliver that.
And that's it. Now, Elon Musk could not have a business that does 8 million a year because he's got a vision so big that it requires multiple billions of dollars a year in revenue to be able to get to Mars and replace fossil fuels. His vision is so big the business has to grow.
Mark Drager: His vision is so big he has to almost buy access to an entire government, doesn't he?
Trevor Mauch: Yeah, exactly. So his vision is there, and that's where I want people to have permission to go. "You know what, get clear on what you want, get clear on why you want it, be excited about that, release the how, and just embrace the 'here's what I want, why I want it, and why it's important for me in my life.'" Eliminate the comparison stuff with others, and then say, "What business do I need to build? How big does it need to be for this year?" Because your vision might get bigger next year. But for this year, build that darn business, just like you said—build the things you need to build this year to make that happen.
And then every year, what I do—I'm going through the process right now myself, because I've got a big planning process that I go through in a couple of phases. One of the things I do every single time, Mark, as I do an identity upgrade, is a process. I take my coaching clients through—I call it an identity upgrade—and I go through it.
I'm like, "Okay, what am I proud of? Like, where am I proud of how I'm showing up in life?" I write those things down. "Where am I not proud that I'm just not proud to show up in this way?" And then I write down—this is after me writing down that ideal average day—then I write down, "Like, what are the gaps between that ideal average day and the person I'm currently being right now? Who do I need to become?" So then I write it down, like, "Here are the traits I need to step into." And then I'll picture two or three people that have those traits or people that I admire. "I'm like, man, I really admire Dan Martell for these three reasons, love these three ways. I really admire Craig Groeschel for these two things, man. I admire the heck out of this guy right here for this one thing." I write those traits down. Okay. And then I'm like, "What do I have to do to adopt those traits?" Because if I want to live that life, I need to step into an identity of a person who's able to live that life, which means I need to adopt new traits." And then I write down my core three. "Who are the three people I need to get closer to this year? These three people have those traits. So I want to get around them. I want to start to learn how to adopt those traits." And I finish with my five non-negotiables. "I have five daily non-negotiables." They're on my phone every day that are just the basic life stuff, right? "Sweat every day." That's going to be one of the things that helps me live that ideal. "I reach out to at least three people every single day," text message or DM three people a day. And that creates business opportunities, but also just helps to show love to the world. "I read 10 pages a day." In order to get where I want to go, I need to learn more and create a habit of being quiet. I've never listened to an audiobook in my life. I always read, because for me, it's about being quiet. For me, it's about cutting distraction. For me, it's about focus because I have a hard time focusing. Dude, my brain is always all over the place. And so reading—I have a couple more in there, but that's what I go through. And the reason I even brought this up is when you said, "Well, okay. Yeah. Um, man, we got to build for this year. We got to know what the heck we're building for this year. First, what did we hire this business to do?"
"And then what vision do we have and who do we need to become? And then just enjoy the process as much as possible. Those pain lines are there for you. They're not for you. Those pain lines are there for you to grow. Um, they're hard and you get the choice to grow through them if your vision requires it and you get the choice to say, 'I don't want to grow through them because I'm not going to keep up with the Joneses and a smaller business will fulfill my vision as it is.'"
Mark Drager: You've been really generous with your time, and I appreciate it, Trevor, but I know that you can't skip these steps on your first time around because the weight, if you drop me into a 30 million-a-year company, the weight of it would probably crush me. So I know you can't skip them around the first time around, but on your second, on your third, on your fourth venture, or maybe you've driven it into the ground, gone bankrupt a few times—these things happen.
On the next time around, can you skip some of these steps?
Trevor Mauch: Yep. 100%. So there's a couple of ways to skip or accelerate through. Here's the thing: somebody in your organization is going to experience these pain lines. Somebody, but it doesn't have to be you. Right? If I were to start a new company, I'll give you an example.
I funded the early days of a company that my brother, Kyle, started. It's blown up. They're going to do about 30 million in revenue this year. It's a sports business. If you're a baseball fan and you're watching the World Series, you see Jazz Chisholm, Luke Weaver, and Bryce Harper in the playoffs—all wearing his gear.
As he sailed past a million and sailed past three, he's the design guy and he hired his friend, his gal who he used to live with, as the COO. I'm like, "Dude, she's not your COO." So if he had not had me to go through that with him, I said, "No, we need to get a true executive—a true executive to be your COO."
Let's skip two or three steps right here. They're growing so fast. So we went out and found the number nine employee at Under Armour. He'd been there for 20-something years and was the right-hand guy. He took Under Armour into baseball. He nailed their manufacturing facilities in China. We recruited him. He's our CEO now and has been for a year and a half. So he sailed through that. That's why he was able to go past the 10 million mark up to 30 in an instant, like in a year and a half—because he skipped some steps. But I think we're having a map. Like I showed here, the reason I created that little chart is not because I think it looks cool or because, "Oh man, if I show a chart, they'll all think I'm just really smart," dude. It's because sometimes we just need a map.
If you've ever run a marathon or a half marathon or done something hard, I've got a buddy who used to work for me, Kyle, and he ran a marathon a month for a year and has run ultramarathons. I've done two half marathons, never a marathon, but he said, "What happens is this." He goes, "The first time I ran a marathon, I didn't ask anybody what it was going to be like." He said, "At mile 18, it felt like I was going to die. Everything in me wanted to give up because I didn't know what was coming. But I pushed through it. I knew that if I pushed through it for another mile or two, I'd get my energy back. And then I have another four or five, six miles. It hit me again at mile 22, 23." Where I'm going with this is, Mark, he said, "If someone had just told me ahead of time that somewhere around mile 16 to 20, it's going to hurt, and I just got to put my head down and push through it," and here's a couple of things you can do:
Take a new energy gel shot and count your steps or use whatever technique you're going to make it through. And then there's going to be another one. Prepare for that. You're probably going to be low on energy. You need to take the fluid at mile 22, whatever it is. He said, "Dude, that would have been so much easier. I would have known what's coming. The pain wouldn't have been less." You're still going to hit those pain lines, but now you can prepare and move through it quicker with more joy because you know what's coming and how to get through it.
So that, to me, is why this is so important. And that's one of the ways you can accelerate through it or potentially skip it: if you know the map already, dude. You go, "Man, I'm already at a million and a half. I know that at 3 million, I'm going to need to step in to be a builder. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to hire a coach who's going to help me be a builder before I actually hit that pain line."
Mark Drager: Last question for you. This is the How to Sell More podcast, and we've been talking about a lot of stuff with mindset. But if you gave us one tip or one strategy to help those of us listening sell more, what would that be?
Trevor Mauch: Dude, the biggest thing for selling—I love selling, man. I could talk for three hours on selling as well. I absolutely love selling. The biggest thing I'm going to give you is the first thing: You have to believe so deeply in your product that it solves the problem better than anything else. That's going to be the best possible way to do better sales. Working with one of my team members, they were selling one of our products and weren't having a lot of success with it. I would go in and sell it really, really well, and I'm just like, "Dude, he's doing the things, but what's making it not work?" He didn't have the firsthand knowledge to have the conviction that I had that it worked as well as it did.
Where a person would bring up an objection, he would kind of pull back a little bit because he didn't have the conviction. Where someone would bring up the objection to me, I'm like, in my brain, "I know that if you don't do this, you're going to be in so much pain because there's no one else who can do this as well as we can. I'm going to do everything in my power to sell you this product, to sell you this solution because I know that I have your pain pill for you, and I'm going to solve it for you, and I'm not going to let you go." Because I'm going to feel like shit if I do.
So that's the first thing you've got to have: insane conviction in your product. If you don't have conviction in your product, go to work on your product and stop selling. Okay? Go to work on your product, stop selling, make it the best damn product and the best solution for that use case. And that's your sales pitch. Number two on the sales side of it: What I always do is there's something called five dominoes. I can come back and talk through my five dominoes.
Mark Drager: We're going to have you on, man. We're going to have you back, and we're just gonna talk about sales next time.
Trevor Mauch: There's five dominoes. I'm going to go through the five dominoes really quickly here, and I'll plan a massive cliffhanger, and we'll come back and do it later. But the five dominoes—a lot of people go in and they're going to ask people some questions like, "Hey, what's your problem?" Dah, dah, dah, whatever.
But when you look at the big people—Salesforce and even ClickFunnels—back in 2016, I deconstructed their slide decks, their pitch decks, their sales decks. I deconstructed those, hopped on sales calls with all the other people, and I said, "With these companies that are growing the most, is there anything in common?" I found that they all did these five things. 100% of the ones that were scaling massively on sales did these five things. Okay. And in order to hit the last domino, which is the sale, they had to hit the first domino. When they hit the first domino, the second one happened. The third one happened. Fourth, fifth.
First domino: We have to get people to believe it and see that there's an industry shift. There's something shifting, right? There's a shift happening, and we need to get them nodding their heads going, "Oh my gosh, yeah. I see this shift happening. I see that." Okay.
Number two: We've then got to get them to pay attention. "You're not selling anything right now. You're just telling them, 'Hey, here's what we're seeing in the market. Are you seeing this? Oh my gosh, I'm seeing this too.'" Number two: "Then we go, well, here's what we're finding. So in order to do well through that shift, the current vehicle you're in—like, I'm not going to say this, but the current vehicle they're using won't do it. It's not going to cut it. It's not going to cut the mustard," as my college baseball coach would say, "to be able to make it successful in that market shift." So you point out all the reasons that your current vehicle is going to kill you through the shift. Okay, and you're planting seeds of doubt.
Now they're like, "Damn, I see it coming. Jeez. What do I do? The thing I'm using is obviously—I'm scared now." Number three: You paint a new vision forward. "Hey, you know what? Here's the shift that's happening. And here's all the challenges that are going to happen with continuing to use websites in the way that they normally are, with continuing to do SEO or continue to do direct mail or whatever it is, right?" You go, "Well, here's the vision forward because this shift is happening. Here's the opportunities that are going to open up. And in order to get these opportunities, this thing is going to help you get there." Okay. And it just so happens that our thing does that really, really well.
Number three, number four: We need to deliver proof. "Hey, I got you to this point. You're believing it. Here's the direction you need to go. You're convinced the direction you need to go." And if you believe the industry is shifting, you have to go this direction now because I planted all these seeds of doubt in your current vehicle.
And now I go, "Let me show you proof. Here's how Johnny did it. Here's how Mark hit it. Here's how this person did it, just like you." And then the last domino is a call to action.
So that was probably a longer answer than you're looking for, Mark. I could do a masterclass on that and how to do those, but those are the two: conviction in your product and dead focus. Like, 100% conviction that it works better than anything else. If not, work on your product. Number two: hit the five dominoes before just selling the product.
Mark Drager: Like a good salesperson, we should never let you out of this meeting without scheduling the next one. So I'm going to have you back in the spring, and we'll bring you back on to do this. Are you up for that?
Trevor Mauch: Awesome, buddy. Yeah, let's make it happen, man.
Mark Drager: And that was my conversation with Trevor Mauch, CEO of Carrot. If you want to learn more about Trevor's work, you can check him out over at carrot.com, or if you'd like the free resources, the downloads, the charts that we walked through today, head over to trevormock.com/freedom. That's trevormock.com/freedom. You don't have to put in any emails. You don't have to jump into his funnel. They're literally at trevormock.com/freedom. They're right there on the page. If you want to connect with him a little bit further, you can dig into his podcast over on his YouTube channel, or you can check them out over on LinkedIn. While you're over on LinkedIn, feel free to give me a lookup as well. My name is Mark Drager. My details are in the episode show notes. I'd love to answer any questions, get to know you a little bit better. I love connecting with podcast listeners every chance that I get.
One last thing: if you're still with me, if you made it this far into the show, you really should subscribe. And here's why: each and every week, we share actionable tips, strategies, lessons, and advice, just like what Trevor shared with us today, to help you grow your business and to become a better sales and marketing leader. So with that, I want to thank you for listening. We're going to wrap up this episode. I am Mark Drager, and I will catch you in the next one.
