EP - 063

5 Ways To Hire The Best Sales Talent

With Guest Billy Stein

How to attract and retain top-tier sales professionals exploring new opportunities

The How to Sell More Podcast

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April 17, 2024

With such a massive influx of great talent on the market right now, employers in growing industries have found themselves in a unique position: securing top-tier talent that was once out of reach.

So, if you have the budget and growth plans in place, perhaps one company’s loss can be your company’s gain?

In this episode of “How to Sell More,” host Mark Drager discusses ways employers can attract and keep top sales talent with Billy Stein, an expert in sales leadership, and the Director of Sales, Central, at Soci, Inc. Renowned for his “detective capability” — a unique listening approach to deeply understand customer needs — Billy has a proven track record with tech giants like ServiceTitan, First Resonance and Seismic. Beyond his impactful sales strategies, Billy also shares his expertise as a co-host of the Sales RX Podcast, influencing the broader sales community with his insights.

Mark and Billy discuss how leaders can use another company’s downsizing to their advantage and the various ways businesses can do a better job of creating an organization where top talent wants to work.

Opportunity amidst layoffs: Company layoffs create an opportunity for your business to attract top sales talent looking for new roles.

Capitalize on the talent market: Learn how to make your company an attractive option for top-tier sales professionals currently exploring new opportunities.

Critical attraction factors: Understand the most important aspects that high-performing salespeople look for in their next employer. This knowledge is crucial for refining your recruitment strategy.

“It's not the companies that actually develop you, it's the individuals.”  Billy Stein

Links to This Episode

Key Takeaways

  • Spend time investing in your professional network - Take the time and energy to grow your professional network. They will not only be there for you on the ride up, but they will also be there to help catch you on the way down.
  • Create environments that top players want to work in, work for, and be a part of - Employees want to work with empathetic and strategic leadership. They want to know that working in your company is going to be a catalyst for their own innovation, career growth and learning.
  • Companies don't train people, people train people - The onus is on the business leader to do the training and provide mentorship or pay for and find the people who are going to provide that for their team.

Top 3 Reasons to Listen

Stay ahead of the competition: Discover strategies to attract and retain top sales talent in a competitive market.

Unlock the secrets of successful hiring: Understand the key factors that top sales professionals are looking for in their next company.

Enhance your recruitment strategy: Find out how to spot the best sales talent amidst a sea of candidates.

Follow Billy Stein on Social

Sales RX Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0YiCUVH0L2oXnvyWfEUrlU

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thesalesdoctor

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billy-stein-24814117/

More About Today's Guest, Billy Stein

Director of Sales, Central at Soci | Co-host of the Sales RX Podcast | Ex-ServiceTitan, Ex-Seismic

Billy Stein, formerly the Regional Vice President of Sales at Seismic (ranked #40 on the Forbes Cloud 100) and Co-host of the Sales RX Podcast, has a robust history as a Sales Leader at top tech companies including ServiceTitan, First Resonance, and Seismic. Stein embarked on his sales career in a wine shop, where he developed what he terms the "detective capability"—an advanced skill in attentive listening that enables him to discern customer desires and objections, leading to more successful deals. Despite no longer being with Seismic, Stein's expertise in managing competitive sales environments continues to influence his professional endeavors.

A Transcription of The Talk

Mark Drager: So, Billy Stein, I have listed here that you're the regional vice president of sales. But that was at your previous company because you were just telling me before we hit record that you have actually moved on to a new company, to a new role. And this is not the first time it's happened to you in this economy. What is going on?

Billy Stein: Unfortunately, not. I don't know how I would tell my 30-year-old self that at a certain point, your role at a company is going to be more focused on tenure than merit. But...

Mark Drager: Is that what's happening? Like, because I've been an entrepreneur for far too long. And so, whenever I have the chance to connect with people in corporate, on large sales teams, even people in startups that are maybe VC-backed, it's a very different vibe than those who might be full-time entrepreneurs, who may be part of a small or medium-sized team in a fairly conventional industry, or someone who works for a large corporate 500 company, and maybe in a department that's more sales or marketing-driven and a little bit more stable. What is happening right now?

Billy Stein: Well, I've had a lot of time to think about it. And I want to start out by saying I was at an amazing company called Seismic until very recently, and I would tell anybody who will listen to that company gave me a lot more than they took from me at any point. But I've had a little bit of time to think about it. And, you know, I kind of have it distilled down like this. I mean, I think a lot of companies took a lot of bets some years ago, and the astute listeners, anybody who pays attention, probably read many articles, or watched a lot of videos or somebody talks about decisions made post-pandemic when money was cheap, and growth was the only option. I think everything's kind of come to a bubble, right? And a lot of people, especially at the company I was most recently at, a lot of people I have a lot of respect for had to make some very difficult decisions. And when you think about the actual root economics behind keeping somebody on board or casting somebody aside, you know, there is a cost of doing business with that. And for me, when I compare myself to some of my peers they just had a lot more tenure at the company than I did. And that cost the company a lot more out the door than releasing somebody who's newer at the company. So, I don't think I'm alone. I've talked to a lot of people who have been dealing with this in the last 18 to 24 months. I've had to deal with it twice. Now, you know, the hardest part about this whole thing is, in a healthy economy, people are going to let bottom performers go or business units that aren't really producing as much as the investment goes into them. But, you know, it's not always a merit-based thing in this industry we're in. If you're in technology, I'm in technology, when it's good to us, it's really, really good to us. And when it's not so good, it doesn't always love us back. So this is kind of the recourse as a result.

Mark Drager: And so, I find it super fascinating because I obviously think more from the manager or the employer side of things. Yeah. And I think, what a fantastic opportunity for those of us who have a budget, who have growth plans, who are able to onboard more people because there's this massive influx of great talent on the market right now looking for people. And sure, you might snatch someone up, and then maybe when the economy changes or if industries change, maybe they might choose to bounce. But I just came across my LinkedIn profile the other day, someone we've had on this podcast, someone we have profiled, someone who I deeply respect, just posted something like, "Hey, I'm open to new opportunities," and I'm thinking, that person is open to new opportunities. How do I get them in my firm? Maybe I'm just too opportunity-focused. But I look at this, like, what a great opportunity. Is that how it feels on the employee side? Or is it very different?

Billy Stein: No, quite the opposite. Maybe it feels great if you're hiring. But, you know, I look at mine too. One of the things that from a very early age, I feel like I had very good mentors that gave me a lot of good direction on was to shake a lot of hands, and get to know a lot of people. You flash forward to the post-pandemic world where our LinkedIn has become, it's evolved to a new form of social media, more powerful than some of the other ones that we may use on a daily basis. I look at my network, and there are people who are just head-scratchers who are part of the green banner committee right now. And it's wild, but no, it definitely doesn't feel like a great opportunity. And like, if you're on the other end of that, you're on the other end of the line, and like, I think a lot of people saw that Cloudflare video with Brittany Peach who recorded her layoff video. To say the rug gets ripped out from underneath you is like an understatement, right? Like, you start to question everything, and especially in my case, you know, I'm no spring chicken anymore. I'm in my mid-30s, which, by tech standards, I guess makes me pretty old, not ADA old.

But, you know, I've got some grey hairs on my face. And I've seen a lot of things. I feel like I built this great pedigree and like, you know, one day everything is great, and you're celebrating wins. And then the next day, "Oh, my god, like, what do I do now?" And that's really the stark reality of what happens like, you get that news. And it's like, "Crap, I haven't updated my resume since, you know, the last time I had to do this. Interviewing is not a skill too many people ever really think about getting good at. How do you find jobs? Like, how do you figure it out? How do you crack the code?" Your thoughts, start to spin, and everything gets very scattered. So, it's quite the opposite feeling if you're on the employee side, compared to the employer side, especially knowing how many other good candidates who also have big networks there are that you're competing with for space.

Mark Drager: That is challenging. I mean, I have, I think we've all experienced that at different levels. You know, our business had a really massive shake-up because of the pandemic. We lost 70% of our revenue in one day, March 12, 2020. We lost 70% of our revenue in a single day. And that was very, very challenging. And I found myself asking many of the similar questions. So, I don't think it's unique just to employees; I think it's unique to anyone who has something outside of their control come up. When you have an idea, when you have a plan, when you know where you're going, when you know what you're doing, at least you feel like you do, you have a certain amount of certainty. And when your world gets rocked, you can have a habit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You could start to question everything; you could start to pull on that thread, and suddenly, like the Weezer song, your sweater's left undone. But as you filtered through that, did you arrive at any kind of conclusions? Were you able to parse through and filter through, "Okay, this is actually the critical objective truth of what I'm facing. And these are the critical objective truths of my skills. And these are the objective truths of maybe where I'm not as competitive as I as maybe I should be." Like, how did you manage that?

Billy Stein: Yeah, my older brother lives right down the street from me here in Los Angeles, and he works in the entertainment industry. And he tells me all the time, "You're not just tech sales. If there's something more you want, go do it." And if he listens to this, he's going to have a proper laugh over it. But pretty quickly on, I mean, you know, when you go through that experience, you call, you confide in the people you're comfortable confiding with, and you let them know what happened. And if you have done favors for people in the past, that's when you start thinking about, "Who could I call in for a favor? If I don't have a favor to ask somebody, who would just help me to help me?" And I knew after talking to everybody on my team about it, after I mean, I know who I am, I know, I'm a tech sales guy all the way. And I love managing teams of sellers. So nothing really changed. It was just about, "Okay, what team can I lead? What technology can I sell? What brand can I be a steward of?" And it was just about not feeling like a victim, not throwing a pity party, but just hitting the ground running and finding the next thing.

Mark Drager: How long did that turnaround take? And then when you decided to find that next thing? How did you? And again, remember, I'm looking for the cheat code here. So I'm like, How do I position? You know, how do we position for our clients or for our firm to employ because recruitment branding, it's still a competitive space, like, even if there's this influx of talent on the market, I still want the best of the best. I want people to come in with the right value set, I want people to have a background in understanding and helping me grow or build with our sales team, our marketing team, and whatever it is we're investing in. So we still want the cream of the crop. How did you look at the next set of opportunities? And what did you value? Or how did you place your values in terms of which companies were kind of your A's versus your B's?

Billy Stein: Yeah, and I would argue, for what you just said, it's probably even more competitive of a land grab right now for employers to try to find talent just because there's so much more of it now. And when I looked at it, you know, first and foremost, you have to look at what you want to do. And for me, what I want to do I want to be a frontline sales manager. They have 1000 names for them, but somebody who manages the team of sellers and reports up to somebody who runs a business unit of sales. I wanted to do it at a growth-stage company. I did not want to go back to a very young startup company. Me, and very important for me. I knew some of the companies already through my network and there were others that I knew if I were going to go in cold anywhere that this was the top most important thing for me is, right now, what I'm good at, in my own view, where my strengths are, is that I'm a good frontline manager, I'm an empathetic individual who uses data well gets to know people and is results driven. I don't want this forever, you know, I made a joke about my age earlier, but I'm still very young in my career. And, you know, I look up and I'm not knocking at the ceiling just yet. So, for me, very specifically, I wanted a company where I could either already know or get to know quickly and get to trust who the leadership was above me so that they could continue to work on my strengths, polish off some of my rough edges, teach me how to think a little bit bigger so that I can still grow my career and some of those higher positions up the org chart that hopefully I'm gonna achieve later on in my career. So that was really the criteria I was looking at. And I was keeping an open mind. But, you know, somehow, the second day, so the day after, this would have been February 2, I went golfing with some friends. And a friend of mine who works at a very large publicly traded company said to me, like, alright, so how's the job search going? I said, Well, you know, a couple of lines out there. But you know, it's been less than 48 hours, he said, good. I hope you're taking it easy. To be honest, have you ever gotten a job from like, learning applying to something on LinkedIn? I thought about that, like, I don't know if I have or not, he said, of course, that you've either had a recruiter reach out to you, or you've gotten referred into every company you've ever worked at having to? And the answer is yes, I've never gotten a job before off of, you know, filling out an easy application on LinkedIn. And that's no offense easy to apply on LinkedIn, but it mattered. So for me, it took me three total weeks between layoff day and the offer. But it took me really about four business days to get in touch with the CRO, whose CRO, my new company, and kind of get it started. And I didn't have any expectations, I didn't even know I was interviewing with him. When I was on the call, I'd have worn a much nicer shirt to that Zoom call. But you know it very quickly, the conversation went from me talking to somebody who I know is extremely well connected in the space and could advocate on my behalf for introducing me to people or even just say, like, hey, check out this company you may have never heard of. And, you know, within 30 minutes, it checked all my boxes. So that was it for me.

Mark Drager: And so if I were to put together a package, or if I were to be able to invest in certain areas, whether it's CRM, and like sales enablement tech, whether it's assets or sales enablement, collateral tools, you know, all of the all of the assets, that marketing teams seem to forget that sales teams need so focused on the MQL. It's like, hey, why don't we actually give our sales team stuff that they could use to keep the conversations or...

Billy Stein: The MQL…

Mark Drager: Marketing teams don't seem to focus too much. But if so, if we focused on tech, or if we focused on that, or if we focused on upside potential of earnings, or we focused on like, oh, I don't have to do much bureaucracy, or they have really great training, or it's a really easy product to understand and sell, tell me as a professional salesperson, how do you rank these things? What's most important to you?

Billy Stein: Okay, so number one, no doubt in order, is there has to be a great leader above me. Whether I'm reporting to a VP, a CRO, a director, or whoever. That is my number one priority because as I told you earlier, I see it as every decision I make in terms of jobs that I go to, I want somebody who's going to poke holes in what I do. That way, they can say like, "Hey, whatever you're doing here, that's a strength of yours, know it and keep doing it the same way you'd coach a seller." But I also want them to say, "Hey, you're not where you need to be here. Work on it. And now here's how we do it over the next 90 days." So, leadership was number one for me. Because I work in technology and because I work generally in the VC space, I do take a look at investors because I want to know that a company is backed by winners who have a history of doing well. Number three, I look at product-market fit. This is a big reason why I wouldn't go back to an early-stage startup, while I'm working on developing the careers and the members of the team, I don't want to be part of the front line and working on developing the product to fit the market and hopefully be purchased. That is a very valuable skill set where a lot of people can make a ton of money. It's just not it for me. And then beyond that, you know, I am working remotely, I have been working remotely primarily for the last four years. It's not a top priority. But I do live in Los Angeles, I would not want to have to commute down to really anywhere outside of about a five to 10-mile radius just because of rush hour. So the office thing didn't really take into effect. But my job search was so short that I didn't have time for that to become a priority. And then I guess tech stack, I mean, I really don't want to have to work off of a desktop computer on dial-up internet with Hotmail.

Mark Drager: Ah, this is so fascinating. Oh, man, this is what I love about this podcast, being able to pick people's brains and just better understand what's important to you. Do you think that what you just shared with us is pretty universal? Or is it really like you're cherry-picking based on your own unique skill sets?

Billy Stein: I think I'm cherry-picking a little bit. And here's where it comes from. I think if I met you prior to 2017 when I joined a company called Service Titan, then I think my priorities would have been a little bit different. I probably would have said office perks and you know, free lunches, and dogs and all that stuff. But now, I think what's really shaped my experience with it is I went to a company called Service Titan that's here out of the Los Angeles area, they're now number five on the Cloud 100. I mean, like, classic rocket ship, this company. I went in they were doing about 30 million a year in ARR. Four and a half years later, when I walked out, aside from getting what I felt was two decades worth of professional experience, the company had expanded to over 600 million in ARR. And, you know, they've been one of the sweethearts of the IPO scene for a few years now. So I really got to see what that hyper-growth can look like. And, you know, I look at that, and I look at all the people whose hands I shook and all the people that were in those boardrooms, making decisions and all the people that you meet along the way. And, you know, it was a special experience for me. So I wanted to try to replicate it as many times as I could. And I feel like a lot of the companies that I pick are doing a lot of the things that Service Titan did right in their own right.

Mark Drager: I guess what I was wondering is like, when did that happen? Or did that not happen? Were you able to replicate it? Were you able to find it? Or do you...

Billy Stein: I mean, everybody replicates it to a degree that I've worked alongside, and Sochi, the company I'm going to, big time, is about to replicate it.

Mark Drager: So I know you're the host of your own podcast, the Sales RX podcast, which I find interesting because there's been this huge move to personal branding, right? Like you're doing this podcast, and it's not sponsored by the company you are at, or the company you're going to, or anything like that. But yeah, I just thought a few years ago, when it hit me, I was 15 years into building my agency. And it's my agency. I mean, I'm the owner of it, and I created and launched it, but it hit me to a certain point where it's like, I'd spent 15 years building up a company. And that was tied to my identity. But the company isn't the product, the company isn't the service, the company is just something, it's an asset. It's something I've spent time doing and building. I realized like, I'm the product, I'm the asset, I'm the thing that has to keep going once this company is maybe sold or buried or what have you. So it hit me at a certain point was like, Ah, I'm actually the product that I need to continually develop, invest in, shape, have a persona, have a brand, and put myself out there. Not in a personal brand type of way, but just simply in terms of life, like this life that I'm living. As you've done your podcast, as you left a few companies, as you've moved into the next company that you've moved into, I have to imagine that you have a very similar feeling about it. Because, yeah, I mean, your career ended at your last company very suddenly outside of your control. Right. But that was just like, you know, it's like my agency. It's a role. It's a company, it's an asset, it's not you and it's not you for your whole career and it's not you for the rest of your career. Did you have to make that kind of shift?

Billy Stein: I think I can half answer that. You definitely have to because if you talk to a wise head, somebody will tell you that you are not your job, you are the person that you choose to be based on the decisions you make and the aspirations you have, right? The reality about that is that you know, that may be the truth. But a lot of our self-worth is attached to a job. The reason I can only answer that as a half is when I think about the relationship between the work I do and the Sales RX podcast, you know, part of the reason why I like doing the Sales RX podcast is that it gets me in front of other people like you, Mark, where I get to just talk about work stuff. There's not a chance in hell my wife would let me talk about all the stuff that we're talking about and actually hold her attention. There's no way that you know, my friends who I hang out with, my golf buddies, would want to talk about any of this stuff, right? And when I think about...

Mark Drager: It's stupid, I mean, this is like the greatest conversation one can be having.

Billy Stein: I agree. But when I think about the podcast, like you talk about branding, I have done a very, through one season now, the Sales RX podcast is created by Chet Lovegrin, my co-host, and he's an ace, that guy doesn't miss and he's been investing a long time in his brand. And he's done a great job of it. And if you look at his reach compared to mine, well, he's much more out there than I am. I never even thought about it from a branding standpoint. I know that's the wrong capitalistic lens to take a look at. But truthfully, I just enjoyed doing the podcast because it is a release to talk about the things that I like to talk about as it pertains to work. You had mentioned though, something interesting, and let's just unpack that too. You said like, it's not like your company sponsored your podcast.

And very specifically, you're right about that. And I never wanted Seismic to sponsor the podcast, and I wouldn't ask Sochi to do it either. Because, you know, when a company hosts a podcast, it's not ours anymore, and there was a very specific methodology to the way we would prepare everything because we didn't want to give away trade secrets, we didn't want to talk about anything that would violate a nondisclosure agreement and lose trust with a customer. I sure as hell wouldn't want to do anything that would alienate and lose trust with my colleagues or my bosses. So that's why we went outside of it and found our own sponsors so that we had somebody that supported our vision that was just around. We're two guys talking about work. These are the things that people in our position like to talk about, these are the things that affect us. And here's why we make decisions based on everything. So I hope that clarifies why we don't why we didn't do that route. And I certainly would not ask my current employer to do the same either.

Mark Drager: No, I think it does, the two dots I was aiming to connect with at least my line of thinking is that for anyone who's listening to this right now, and whether you're more like in my position, you know, maybe you're a sales manager or maybe you're a marketing manager, or maybe you're a leader, maybe you're an entrepreneur, you're someone in the decision-making seat, who is looking to create a stronger team, who's looking to recruit top talent and keep that top talent. Very rarely are we in a situation where we can just pick someone's brain, because it's not the right time in the interview process. In my experience, even if you have a very good relationship with your staff, they will often be open and honest. But at the end of the day, there's still that dynamic power dynamic that we have to be aware of. Yep. And so where I was going with it in the dots was connecting was that if you are on that side, it's important that we understand how to be more competitive to build stronger teams, because ultimately, especially in the people-driven businesses that we work with your people are everything. I mean, people say that right?

My team is everything my people are everything. But then, but then they don't seem to realize just how interwoven every aspect of the operations business and recruitment like every aspect of everything, how interwoven it is. So it's like I really appreciate you helping better me understand, right, what is important to you. But then on the employee side, on the sales side, on the employee side. You're I don't know if today your employer is responsible for very much. You know, like give people training, give people mentorship create a great atmosphere, like all of the stuff that I want to do when we build Small Giants, based on the books, Small Giants. Is it like it seems today that if the economy turns or there's or there were bad decisions, people are just going to lay you off, and it's terrible? I don't know. It's always right. I think sometimes it's immoral. But that doesn't change the objective nature of the fact that you are now having to figure this out on your own. And so being able to realize that you are the brand, or you are the product or the service, it helped me in my thinking, at least even as an agency owner, to say, like, oh, shit, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna outlive this current role of mine, I'm going to outlive this current thinking, I'm going to outlive this current iteration of whoever I am. And so I better figure out ways to prepare myself for the future, to prepare myself for whatever's next, but also take more responsibility for, I guess, my own packaging if that makes sense.

Billy Stein: Can I give you a thought on that before we wrap here? Sure. Okay, so it's funny, something you said really struck a chord with me, you talked about, like, it's not really on our employers to do very much apart from, you know, give us our computer and make sure our paycheck comes out on time. But I do think there's a very interesting line of demarcation. When I think about every job I've ever had, every leader I've ever had, for better or for worse, and companies don't train people up, companies really don't invest in people. And you can say, well, a company gives the $1,000 learning credit every year like, okay, sure, that is an investment in people. But that's like a lowercase investment. When I think about like, all caps investment, like the individuals that I came across that, you know, help push my buttons in a certain way that I saw the world through a different lens of perspective, that always came down to people. And, you know, think about some of my friends who have come up in like Oracle, ADP, SAP, some of those, like very big companies that are even like, what is the Enterprise rental car center, like, there are companies where, like, from day one, you have a three-year career path. And all of the KPIs and all the mile markers are set for you to get to the next position. And it's like, What a luxury to have to think about it that way. Right? But I don't think it's companies don't really do it. And I don't think it's the company's responsibility to do it. Because at the end of the day, companies have their outcomes they need to hit they have whatever the numbers need to be at the end of a certain timeframe. And that is what they are responsible for. There's a lot of jokes that go around right now, like, oh, it's about the shareholders. Well, in reality, it is about the shareholders.

And unfortunately, as an employee, you have to do your bidding for the shareholders, that is the reality. And if you choose to look at it as a bad thing that's your prerogative. But if you choose to look at it for what it is, then you quickly realize them. And what you realize is, that it's not the companies that actually develop you it's the individuals. And I look at some of the very best at, you know, I still consider myself like in the formative years in my career, and like all the very best leaders, they had. All that development time was not the main programming, it was ancillary to whatever the task at hand was. And somebody else took it upon themselves to make me better at what I was doing, because they genuinely wanted to make me better. So I don't know if I'm ever gonna turn the corner and say like, it's indicative of companies to develop their people. I think it's indicative of people to develop people, and whether it's for building up your own company, and what you might look for in people that you want to hire to take on key leadership roles, or whether it's for somebody listening that wants to find that next company. When you think about other human beings, like, how are you going to benefit from being around this person? I can tell you, that I've already marked in 30 minutes we've been sitting down, I realized I need to put some more work into the podcast and like thinking about how we brand that and make it better for our listeners. But you know, when I look at a company, it's like, you know, I don't expect training is going to happen during normal business hours. I think it's going to happen. Like when I'm driving somewhere, and my boss calls me, says, here's the situation and says, How do you think about it? And then they say, well, you're 70% Correct. But here's a couple of things to think about. And here's the knock-on effects of it. I think that's how we should prefer it.

Resources & Go Deeper

CompTIA IT Industry Outlook 2023

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The Future of Jobs Report 2023 | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

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